Ep. 67- Q&A What is Sex Therapy? with Jessica Holfeltz, LCMHC

Just a reminder to listeners that the topic of sexual health is an important step in the recovery journey, and if you are not yet in the place in your recovery to work on that piece, that is perfectly normal and okay. Listeners are invited to skip this episode if needed and rejoin on the next one!

All of our hosts, Becky, Autumn and Tiffany are together and joined again by sex therapist Jessica Holfeltz, this time for a Q&A session.

Jessica Holfeltz is the owner and clinical director of Resilient Roots Counseling, a sexual health and wellness center in Draper, UT. She works with a broad range of sexual concerns including Out of Control Sexual Behavior, Sexual Addiction, sex during and post-cancer treatments, pornography concerns, erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, painful intercourse, broken agreements and betrayal, low desire and arousal, LGBT+, polyamory, and resolving conflict between spirituality and sexuality.  

Jessica uses Internal Family Systems (IFS), Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), as well as Mindfulness and Somatic Experiencing (SE).  She is currently running a men’s therapy group for Out of Control Sexual Behavior and plans to open up her schedule for another one, due to demand.  If you or someone you know could benefit from this type of group, reach out to Jessica, personally at Jess@rootedsexandwellnes.com to reserve a spot.

Jessica also serves on the Board of Directors of The Corey Holmgren Memorial Fund, a 501c3 non-profit that raises money and helps individuals and couples pay for therapy when it isn’t a possibility, financially.

Jessica currently lives in Utah with her sweetheart, Rob, their kids, fur babies, and chickens.

To begin the episode, Jessica acknowledges that the word “sex” in Sex Therapy can be daunting. She explains that Sex Therapy is a type of psychotherapy that specializes in sexual health, which is the balance of safety and pleasure of all types, not just sexual pleasure. She continues to explain that sex therapy can help couples get curious about where each partner is, create space for conversations, learn how to have conversations, and address the concerns dealing with the dysfunctional part of sexual health. Jessica reassures listeners that sex therapy only involves processing and talking through things, and the only difference between sex therapy and typical cognitive behavioral therapy is the subject matter being addressed.

The more curiosity we have about sexual health, in general, that weeds out the shame.

Jessica acknowledges the vulnerability of having conversations with our partners around sex, and shares how sex therapy can assist in that process. Jessica cautions that an ethical sex therapist will never push you to do something outside of your value or that is not comfortable for each partner. She also reiterates that for partners who have experienced trauma, finding a sex therapist who is also trauma-informed is important. Jessica shares how women experiencing healing from betrayal trauma may be ready to engage with their partners sexually, but can still have blocks around the experience.

That’s where sex therapy can step in - we get curious.

Jessica shares some of her personal experiences from her newlywed days when sex was painful. She relates the shame she felt, wondering if something was wrong with her or if the situation would ever improve. She explains that for listeners in similar situations, it is valuable to get curious around their pain, as different kinds of pain point to different potential treatments.

Pain is the body trying to communicate with us.

It is NOT a sign that we are broken.

Jessica instructs listeners that the number one rule is if sex hurts, to stop immediately. This includes the psychological pain that comes from intrusive thoughts. She explains that we do not want to teach our body to push through the pain with something potentially connective and pleasurable. She advises to communicate with your partner, to acknowledge your body’s response and listen to your body. Experiencing pain during sex even one time can stay with us and in our bodies, and we are likely to have another experience based on our bodies remembering the previous experience. This can allow you to take care of yourself and connect in a safe and pleasurable way. Jessica shares that when sex is painful, sex therapy can help couples communicate and explore other potential easy to connect and find pleasure together. She also explains the value in having a care team on the same page - there can be physiological explanations for pain, and she shares the wisdom in having sex therapists connect with their clients doctors, pelvic floor therapist, naturalist, etc…

Jessica explains that shame is a major contributor to sexual dysfunction and prevents couples from being fully vulnerable in conversation or with each other behaviorally. Shame is also a contributor to pain, as when we listen to our shame voice telling us “we are not enough” or we are “unworthy,” pleasure is unattainable in any form, not just sexual. 

In order to experience sexual pleasure, we must have a healthy relationship with pleasure in general.

Jessica shares how it is easy for women to become so busy serving others that they often forget self-care. There is immense pleasure to be found in taking care of ourselves. Jessica states that self-care is often a starting place for clients to get curious and pick apart how they engage in pleasure. She also explains that it is important to balance the safety and pleasure piece during sex.

We can’t fully say yes without knowing that we can say no.

Jessica encourages listeners to use their voice to be heard. She shares how sex therapy can help partners listen to each other and not feel shame when the other says no. She also explains how sex therapy can help couples navigate healing when sex is off the table to help them find a safe, slow build to where they would like to be. Being able to talk about low-stake pleasure through non-sexual touch, as both the giver and receiver, and communicating before, during, and after the experience can start to build intimacy and communication around pleasure at the same time.

Jessica’s Recovery Resources

“Friends don’t let friend use KY or Astroglide”

Instead, try these lubricants: 

-Uberlube

-Coconu

-Good Clean Love

-Sliquid

Jessica’s Recovery Song

“Welcome Back to You” by Aron Wright

“I love this song because it reminds me of my journey back home to myself. I don’t know exactly where I’m going or where I will end up, but I’m really loving this journey.”

Ep. 66- Hejdi's Story

Becky and Tiffany sit down with Hejdi, who shares her story. Hejdi lives in Georgia, has been married for 17 years, and has four kids. She teaches voice lessons and loves to run.

Hejdi shares that she was raised in a religious home where she felt loved and seen by God. Later, when she was dating her husband, she asked him if he struggled with pornography. He said yes and that he was seeing a therapist for it. However, Hejdi explains that “neither of us knew the monster it was.” 

Early on in their marriage, Hejdi shares how there was a “numb cloud” within her after learning her spouse was still struggling with pornography. “There were no emotions left to give others,” she says. She describes how it felt like this was “our” problem, not “his” problem.

Her darkest time came when she was pregnant with their third child and discovered her husband’s acting out behaviors had escalated to an emotional affair.

It was so sad because I knew what he was capable of, but he was so far into the addiction that he couldn’t see clearly. I was afraid I couldn’t save him from himself.

Hejdi shares how even though it was a dark time, she felt loved by God. She found supportive women’s groups and church leaders. “I knew there was somehow a beautiful plan for me and these children we’d brought into this world,” she says.

When asked when she started seeing hope and light, Hejdi describes how she had different levels of hope throughout the whole experience. Some points of help were learning concepts involving surrender and healthy boundaries, which came with hesitations.

I felt like boundaries were going to backfire—they scared me. That’s why it’s helpful to listen to other people’s stories. 

She reminds us that boundaries can change throughout the journey—just make sure the focus is on one’s own safety. Her women’s group felt like a “safe haven” here she could go and listen to others’ stories. “You feel heard and seen by someone who’s been through the exact same thing,” she says.

I put God in my center. I know He has me. Putting Him as my focus, I could trust Him. The second I tried to sneak my husband back in my center, you know instantly that I felt more stressed and crazy.

Hejdi shares that there are still some areas where she needs healing, namely allowing herself to have “off” days and saying “no” when she feels maxed out. She also has to sometimes fight the temptation to want to jump back in and control things.

When asked what role God has played in her healing in this journey, Hejdi explains that: 

He is my healing. He’s why I’m able to get up each day. He’s why I have hope when it seems so dark. He held and loved me when it seemed like I wouldn’t ever have true love in this life. He’s the solution to all pain. Finding His love is the reason why we’re here.

Hejdi’s Recovery Resources:

Podcasts

SALifeline 12 step

Find a good therapist—shop around.

He Restoreth My Soul by Donald L. Hilton

Putting on the Armor of God by Steven Cramer

From Heartache to Healing: Finding Power in Christ to Deal with a Loved One’s Sexual Addiction by Colleen C. Harrison and Philip A. Harrison

Clean Hands, Pure Heart: Overcoming Addiction to Pornography Through the Redeeming Power of Jesus Christ by Philip A. Harrison

What Can I Do About Me? by Rhyll Croshaw

Hejdi’s Song: “Breathe” by BYU Noteworthy and the Truman Brothers

Ep. 65- Get to Know the Team- Part 2

In the Part 2 of Get to Know the Team, we invite listeners to get to know us a little better and get some updates on our journeys. In this episode, the three of our team members sharing with listeners are Autumn, Richard, and Tiff. 

We invite you to curl up and learn a little more about the technical side of the podcast, what everyone on the team does to help with the podcast, challenges and strengths that have developed over time, recovery practices that have stood the test of time, favorite books, snack, and quotes, and more! 

We hope you enjoy getting to know us a little bit better and look forward to a beautiful year 5 of the Rise Up Restored podcast.

A few things (of many things) we shared in this podcast-

From Autumn:

Snack- A tangerine and turkey stick EVERY DAY!  

Books- “The Happiness Project” by Gretchen Rubin & “The Healing Questions Guide” by Wendi Jensen

From Richard:

Snacks- Ruffles potato chips and cottage cheese, Lindt White Chocolate peppermint truffles, and a bowl of cereal EVERY night

Books- “The Hobbit” and “The Lord of the Rings” series by JRR Tolkein, “The Beyonders” series by Brandon Mull, “Fathered by God” and others by John Eldredge  

From Tiff:

Snack- Kevita drinks

Books- “Real Love” by Greg Baer, “Love and Respect” by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs and Thomas Nelson, and “The Law of Divine Compensation” by Marianne Williamson. 

Richard’s Song: “Every Mile Mattered” by Nichole Nordeman

This song is a reminder to each of you: your journey matters.  Every mile of it!

Ep. 64- Get to Know the Team- Part 1

As we begin our 5th year of the podcast (yay!), we thought it would be fun for our listeners to get to know us a little more and give some updates on our journeys.  This episode has three of our team members opening up to listeners: Becky, Deb and Erin. 

We invite you to curl up and learn a little more about how the podcast came to be, what everyone on the team does on the podcast, challenges and strengths that have developed over time, recovery practices that have stood the test of time, favorite books, snack, and quotes, and more!

We hope you enjoy getting to know us a little bit better and look forward to hearing from the rest of the team in the next episode.

A few things (of many things) we shared in this podcast-

From Becky:

Sour Patch Kids and the book “Tattoos on the Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion” by Gregory Boyle

From Deb:

Nachos and the book “The Bodyguard” by Katherine Center

From Erin:

Buc-ee’s treats and the “Harry Potter” book series, and the books “Gratitude 365” by Celeste Jensen and “Healing in Christ’s Light from Pattern’s of Sexual Betrayal” by Jeni Brockbank

Becky’s Song: “Rise” by Danny Gokey

Just a reminder that you were made to rise!

Ep. 63- Self-Compassion with Shelley Dunford-Hardy, LMFT

The Rise Up Restored Podcast Christmas Gift this year is an episode on self-compassion!

Tiffany and Becky are joined by licensed and experienced therapist Shelley Dunford-Hardy. Shelley’s masters degrees in Clinical Psychology and Spiritual Psychology have brought greater focus on self-compassion as an important tool in her work as a therapist.

Shelley shares some of the research in the field that self-compassionate people tend to have greater happiness, life satisfaction, resilience, motivation, better relationships and personal health… She shares additional research that the biggest predictor of happiness and overall fulfillment in life is love. The most important relationship any of us can have is with ourselves, which is why self-compassion is so vital for all of life’s ups and downs.

“The priority is not my kids, spouse, or job; it’s lining up with myself, my High Power, my humanness, and my soul.”

Shelley defines compassion as sensitivity to pain or suffering of another, coupled with a deep desire to alleviate that suffering. She goes on to explain that self-compassion is having that same feeling of sensitivity and oneness with the other, putting your arm on them, trying to soothe, but not getting out of the suffering and instead leaning into it. Shelley shares that most people are afraid because they think when they go into the pain, they will never come back out again. But that isn’t what self-compassion is for.

We can’t go over it. We can’t go under it. We have to go through it.

Shelley continues to share more of what self-compassion is not: it is not selfishness, it is not “should”-ing on yourself or judging yourself, it is not critical, it is not a pity party, and it is not self-esteem.

Shelley outlines the three parts of self-compassion: loving self-kindness, common humanity, and mindfulness and awareness. With loving self-kindness, we can be supporting, encouraging, and understanding to ourselves. Recognizing our common humanity helps us to realize we are all imperfect, and none of us are totally unique or totally alone. Pain is part of the human experience. Remembering this can transform our pain into a moment of connection with other people and ourselves. Becoming aware of our pain, and the mindfulness to just be with our pain and suffering long enough to respond with care and kindness helps us move into the healing.

“Pain is magic. Suffering is tragic. Suffering is what happens when we avoid pain and consequently miss our becoming.” ~ Glennon Doyle

Shelley recommends several resources to help develop a regular practice of self-compassion, including a nightly check-in with herself. She recommends the Self-compassion website and Workbook by Kristin Neff, and reminds listeners that this is all about growth. Once we are grounded in self-compassion, then we can become open to compassionate self-forgiveness, which is to be an UPCOMING episode on the podcast.

Self-compassion is a great way to learn to treat ourselves as a friend and ally.

Shelley’s Recovery Resources:

The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook by Dr. Kristin Neff and Dr. Cristopher Germer

What Happened to You? by Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey

Untamed by Glennon Doyle

self-compassion.org - website by Dr. Kristin Neff

Shelley’s song: “What Do You Hear in These Sounds” by Dar Williams

Ep. 62- Keara's Story

Becky and Tiffany sit down with Keara, who shares her story. Keara lives in Arizona, has been married for almost 20 years, and has six kids. She loves design, singing, dancing, and Halloween.

Keara shares that growing up, she knew God was there and she loved him, but she thought he viewed her as a nuisance. For her, prayer was more of a grovel. When she was in junior high, she began using chat rooms, where she was introduced to pornography and masturbation. For years, she felt disgusting and unlovable because she tried to stop and couldn’t. Because of this, Keara shares how pointless it felt to try to repent.

It wasn’t until high school that she was able to stop. “Getting older and being more mature in the spirit, I was able to filter through some of those beliefs,” she says.

Keara met her husband at age twelve and fell instantly in love with him. Since he was four years older than she was, they never dated until after his mission. The couple never shared their journeys with porn with each other, but he did disclose that he wasn’t temple worthy and so they couldn’t get engaged yet. When he wouldn’t share the reason he wasn’t temple worthy and was defensive of it, Keara felt a lack of trust in their relationship—a gap.

Keara and her husband did eventually marry, but it wasn’t until seven years into the marriage that he came to her and told her he’d been viewing inappropriate things on the internet. She explains that this became a regular occurrence, “I forgave him so quickly every time because that’s what I wanted for myself, to be forgiven.” However, Keara describes how lonely she was with her young children and her husband in school.

I tried to be happy when he was home, I tried to have dinner ready, and tried to not have things in disarray. I tried to make sure things were good for him when he came home.

Eventually, the disclosures of his acting out in lust became too much for her to automatically forgive. “I couldn’t stand him,” Keara says. “I couldn’t forgive him. I was angry at him.” It was then that her husband began attending the Addiction Recovery Program (ARP). Keara describes her relationship with God at this time:

I felt angry with God because here I’m feeling betrayed already and now (my husband’s) leaving for (ARP). I know he’s leaving to get better from this, but there was a lot of leaving. I felt alone.

Keara explains how a bishop during this time helped her husband work through some of his selfishness. He told her husband: “She is Keara, mom, and wife. But she only gets to be mom and wife. You have to make sure she gets to be Keara.”  Through meeting with this bishop, Keara learned that:

The atonement is not just for sins. It’s for those who have been hurt and sinned against. I saw Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father as loving people who would care for me and love me.

Keara reminds us of this analogy, which has helped her relationship with the Lord: “God is the dad in the stands, cheering you on, not the umpire calling the balls and strikes.” She describes how this knowledge takes the pressure away so that she feels she can be herself without apology.

Keara shares that her marriage isn’t perfect now—there are still recurrences and struggles. But things are more open, and there’s more trust and focus on boundaries. “If something upsets me, I definitely say something. I can forgive, but that doesn’t mean I have to put up with it,” she says.

For as much pain my husband has caused me, I have never felt so much love and acceptance from that same person who is a totally different person now. He’s so different. I found healing from the atonement of Jesus Christ and my husband did, too.

When asked how she’s finding restoration, Keara shares that through understanding grace and the atonement of Jesus Christ, she now realizes the Lord looks on the heart.

Keara’s Best Recovery Resources:

Rise up Restored podcast

Journaling

Keara’s Song": “True Colors” by Justin Timberlake and Anna Kendrick

Honorable Mention: “This Love” by Taylor Swift

Ep. 61- Hosts' Check-In

After many requests from listeners, hosts Becky, Autumn, and Tiffany come together to check-in on how they are really doing in their personal healing journeys. 

The team shares what they see of their individual growth looking back over the years and the hope they feel looking forward.  

Each host shares what is currently helping them, including focusing on the physical side of healing,  increased awareness of old patterns, and more.  They talk about resources that are helping them currently, like the power of walking (and bilateral stimulation), self-compassion, and sitting in the quiet when they can.  

A discussion about the awareness of self and their own needs helps us to see the importance of reconnecting to ourselves.  They share that listening to their bodies and trusting themselves has been key in this journey. 

The hosts remind us about the importance of not doing this alone and that there are more and more resources available, if we will step into the light and look.  It is also vital to remember that everyone’s journeys are different and that to focus on what works for you and helps you, even if it is different from others.

In the struggle that is still there, the team shares the places they are stuck, including old patterns, fear, self-doubt, and getting stuck in their own heads, and how they handle those things in a better way now.  

Becky, Autumn, and Tiffany wanted to share some important reminders including: “Be curious, not judgmental” and the reassurance that “It gets better”.

Learning and growing from our struggles and pain can be part of this process and Rabbi Steve Leder reminds all of us:  

If you have to go through Hell, don’t come out empty handed.

Hosts’ Recovery Resources:

Physical self-care

Physical movement/ bilateral stimulation

Silent walking

Daily taking care of self

Awareness of your own needs

Reconnecting to yourself

Be curious, not judgmental

Tiffany’s Song:  “I Refuse” by Josh Wilson

Ep. 60 - Tara’s Story - Daughter

Becky and Tiffany are joined by Tara, a wife and mother of four kids. Tara is the Executive Director of the S.A. Lifeline Foundation, and shares her experiences as the daughter of a recovering sex addict and a betrayed spouse.

Tara describes her family as very faithful growing up. She remembers saying family prayers and attending church each week. Tara describes herself as a life-long believer at her core, and was always aware that God had a very clear plan for her. Tara also explains that she grew up with a black and white mentality about people being good or bad, and that led to her feeling like God’s love was conditional on her always being good and never making mistakes. 

God was there, but my understanding of my relationship with Him wasn’t clear yet.

Tara shares her memories of smaller disclosures that her father had made poor decisions with consequences regarding his church participation as she was a young child and again as a teenager. She recalls the feeling of a looming secret that was felt but never talked about. While there was genuine joy in the home, there was also an underlying discomfort.

As a young newlywed, Tara shares her experience hearing the full truth of her father’s addictive behaviors, including his arrest and loss of church membership. After his disclosure, she describes the confusion and sense of betrayal that came over her. Tara also explains that she felt relief as the elephant in the room was finally addressed.

Truth will set you free, painful as it is.

Tara discusses the need and the value to have honest disclosure with children of addicts as well as the importance of age-appropriate sharing. Becky reaffirms that we can’t do something different if we don’t know what’s going wrong. It can be scary to let our adult imperfections show to our children, but we can share so they don’t have to repeat our mistakes.

Tara shares that one of the greatest gifts to come from her parents’ recovery is to share their story with their grandchildren when they reach 12 or 13 years old. She describes that being so transparent and authentic with their grandchildren gives the kids permission to make mistakes and know they are still worthy of love.

Watching my father’s transformation has been one of the greatest catalysts for me having greater self-compassion, and greater compassion and empathy for those around me.

Tara describes that she used to be afraid of her weaknesses because she was afraid God would stop loving her. As she works with people who struggle with sex addiction, she has learned that there are no lost causes. All humans have the capacity to change if we rely on a God who is willing and able to change us.

Tara shares some of the changes she noticed in her father’s behavior that indicated he really was in recovery: he was humble, honest, accountable, and connected with God and others. She reminds listeners about the distinct difference in feeling between when talking to someone who is a poser versus someone who is truly connected to you. She encourages listeners that it takes significant time to see lasting changes and a willingness to forgive when the time is right. Each of her sibling’s journeys to recovery has been individual.

Tara gives more background information about the foundation her parents started, S.A. Lifeline, as an organization to provide information and education about the harms of pornography, sex addiction, and betrayal trauma. A few years later they also started the Twelve Step Groups in SAL 12 Step. Each year the foundation holds an annual conference, and this year’s conference is just a few weeks away and everyone can register in person or online!

Tara testifies of the power Christ has to fundamentally change and transform something. She shares that she has watched her father become a new creature in Christ, one who helps others change and become the people that God wants them to become. She shares that God was in the mess and willing to walk in the darkness with her and her father until he was willing to turn toward the light again.

God plays the long game, regardless of what we struggle with. That gives me hope.

Tara’s Best Recovery Resources:

Prayer

S.A. Lifeline

What Can I Do About Me? by Rhyll Croshaw

SAL 12 Step (sal12step.org)

S.A. Lifeline Conference (Sept 9th, 2023 in Salt Lake City, UT) (salifeline.org)

Tara’s Song: “Come as You Are” by Crowder

Ep. 59- Andi's Story

Becky and Tiffany sit down with Andi to share her story. Andi was born and raised in North Carolina and currently lives in Georgia. She loves nature, family, college basketball, going on cruises, reading, dark chocolate, and Disneyworld.

Andi shares that she’s always known about God’s love because her mother and grandmothers were very spiritual and taught her about Him.

She shares how she met her husband in college at the age of 18 at a church function for young adults. They eventually had a long-distance relationship, during which he disclosed his pornography addiction. “In my youth, I didn’t have the wherewithal to think too much about it, and church leaders said when you get married, it wouldn’t be a problem anymore,” Andi says.

However, after the wedding, it didn’t take very long for Andi to get the sense that the porn use was still going on. The health problems and eventual death of their first child when he was a baby was all-consuming, so porn wasn’t something she could think about at that time.

Over time, Andi shares that they did try marriage counseling because: 

I could tell he loved me and didn’t love me at the same time.

But she still struggled with feeling like she wasn’t enough. Their family grew and there were good times and bad times. Andi explains how her husband was the most generous, magnanimous, fun person…until he wasn’t. He had a lot of up and down emotions.

Andi describes how she was mostly alone in this betrayal trauma battle—only a couple of family members knew about her husband’s porn use. 

I had God and the scriptures. I felt the Lord speaking to me through the scriptures…it’s where I went because there was nowhere else to go.

Andi explains the overcompensation that she engaged in to survive. “I’m naturally a worrier,” she says. “If he’s up and down, then I needed to be steady for the kids…I fought hard to stay even keeled in my emotions…I wasn’t allowed to have a bad day.”

However, this was taking a toll, as, Andi shares, she started having anxiety attacks. And about twenty years into their marriage, she experienced the heaviest darkness when she found her husband masturbating in front of the computer, where there was great risk that one of the kids could have possibly seen what was going on. This, and other alarming behaviors, caused her to set some boundaries.

At the end of that summer, I wasn’t willing to live that way anymore. I said, “You don’t treat me horribly, but you don’t treat me good, either. I deserve to be treated better.” When I told him, “I’m done,” he was surprised.

Andi describes their third round of counseling at this time. The counselor asked her not to make a decision about whether or not to stay together quite yet. He asked her to sit on the decision for a while. He explained other important concepts, like the fact that her husband’s addiction was taking up all his energy, leaving him with little left for her. He also helped her understand that she didn’t have to forgive him right now.

This gave Andi permission to take a deep breath. 

We planned a vacation and I told him he couldn’t come because I needed to relax, and I couldn’t relax with him there. 

Becky and Tiffany share how this shows she had enough awareness to ask for what she needed because a boundary is not about punishing the other person, it’s about taking care of yourself.

Things began to shift for Andi when her husband did a full disclosure with their therapist and began attending the Addiction Recovery Program. Through these things, she noticed some changes in her husband, like he wasn’t as negative or ornery. Andi shares how he was more emotionally available with the kids. This gave her hope.

I’m willing to work with someone who’s actually working.

Andi shares that her biggest gamechangers in finding hope was realizing it wasn’t about her. “I came to understand that I didn’t cause it. I can’t fix it. He has had this addiction since he was 10.” She says the biggest “aha” moment for her was choosing not to be a victim anymore, but to be empowered to step into her own strength and recovery. 

I trusted God even more. I knew He’d gotten me through everything in my life thus far and that He could get me through the next step. He would hold my hand. If it was with my husband, or not with my husband, God would be there.

Andi describes that now, all these years later, her recovery has been absorbed into her lifestyle by taking it one day at a time. “The more I know, the more I don’t know,” she says. However, when asked how she’s finding restoration through Christ, she says, “The same way I’ve been finding it for the last 60 years. I feel uninspired until I spend my mornings with Him. I read the scriptures, a daily devotional book, then I listen to a piece of a podcast every morning. I also go for walks…I see God in the trees all the time.”

The Lord was always there for me. He was there the whole time.

Andi’s Best Recovery Resources:

Addiction Recovery Program

Reading recovery books

“Heart of a Woman” retreat

Music

The movie, The Shack

Dopamine Nation by Anna Lembke (book)

The SALifeline Conference

Andi’s Song:  “Stand in Holy Places” by Jenny Frogley

Ep. 58- 12-Step Groups with Josh Walpole, ACMHC

Becky, Autumn, and Tiffany are joined by Josh Walpole, Associate Clinical Mental Health Counselor who has been working for Circles of Grace (formerly LifeStar Salt Lake) for over 4 years.  Josh works with individuals, couples, and groups.  He went through the LifeStar Program, completing Phases 1, 2, and 3.   Josh developed the Warrior Group at Circles of Grace for single men, ages 18-25 years old struggling with compulsive sexual behavior.  Josh has been attending and working the 12-step program for over 9 years. His 12-step journey began at ARP (the LDS church’s addiction recovery program), then attended SA (Sexaholics Anonymous), and then landed at SAL 12 step, which is where he still attends today.  Josh has been a Service Council Director for SAL 12-step for over 3 years. 

Josh’s hobbies include golfing, gardening, backyard fire pits, and smoking meat.  Josh especially loves going to Bear Lake with his amazing wife Bri and their four kids.

Josh joins the hosts to discuss 12-Step programs and how they can work in synergy with therapy.  He shares the history of how 12-step groups began (almost 100 years ago), including the realization by Carl Jung, famed psychotherapist, that his client struggling with alcoholism needed more than he could provide.  His client needed spirituality.  From this realization, Bill W. and Dr. Bob worked to develop the 12-Step program.

12-step is a spiritual program. 

Josh believes that with addiction you need to heal physically, emotionally and spiritually.  He reminds us that the program emphasizes “the God of your understanding”, and just focuses on a higher power, something higher than you, so that you can come to that place wherever you are at.

It is based around God.  Finding God and bringing God into the process.

The program is just what it says:  12 Steps to work on your healing.

Steps 1-3- Preparing to enter in, get established with the program. (I can’t. God can. I will let Him.)

Steps 4-10- Actions steps or diving into the work. (Personal Inventory.  Admit Wrongs.  Prepare for Change.  Seek God’s Help.  Becoming Willing.  Make Amends.  Daily Inventory.)

Steps 11-12- Maintenance steps (Prayer and Meditation. Give It Away)

Sometimes there are nerves about working Step 4 which is Personal Inventory, but many people find it very powerful.  Autumn shares that she feels like spouses, families and friends do very well with Step 4.  Tiffany shares

Step 4 is a very transformative step that is going to make the biggest difference.

Josh then shares what meetings are like.  For some people it can feel intimidating to walk into a meeting.

He shares a few basics of meetings including time frame, basic introductions, reading guidelines about sharing, reading from literature (volunteers reading aloud, learning about the 12-steps), personal stories shared when desired, the phone list, etc…  He says the goal of meetings is to be a safe space and space for learning. 

Sharing is about sharing an Experience, Strength, and Hope.

Becky shares that 12-step was the first time she was able to share what was going on with herself and her husband, because she didn’t talk to her family at all.  She says that she felt very alone and

12-step was one of the very first times I could say my feelings out loud and I knew that people would understand and not judge me.

Tiffany says that it took her a minute to warm up to 12-step and she tried a few different groups to find the right one, that felt safe and like home.  She shares that she initially felt nervous that her husband was going to his meetings to get justification to support his addiction and not support to heal from it.

Josh shares that we all need some cheerleading and that most people are pretty shame based and don’t feel much hope or success.  Having a sense of community helps.  And having people to call you on your lies is important in healing.

Give yourself permission to try a few different meetings to find the right fit for you.

Going to meetings may be uncomfortable at first.  Becky shares that she did not say a word in a meeting for almost 2 months (and that’s a big deal for Becky!).  She says that she didn’t even say her name for 2 months, she just passed.  And you can pass, too!  If you aren’t ready to share, you don’t have to.  You can just say Pass.  TIffany shares that as challenging as it can feel to go, she always left uplifted and her cup was filled.  She says she felt peace and renewed and ready to go back into her life to keep fighting and working.

If there are times, especially at the beginning, where you feel triggered in a meeting, it is important that you take care of yourself during meetings.

Josh has a few recommendations:

~SAL meetings are his recommendation because they have written their own books and are the only ones who have recognized Betrayal Trauma, and have male only groups and female only groups.

~Find a safe meeting

~Grounding exercises (something soothing to help you stay present in body)

And if it becomes too much, it is OK to leave to the meeting

Josh shares one big benefit is that 12-Step meetings are FREE!  He says that therapy and 12-Step go great together, but if you can’t do therapy, go to 12-step to do the work, you will find healing.  

Josh also discusses sponsors and finding a good fit for you.  Sponsors are there to help you work the steps- reading, writing, and talking to your sponsor.  Tiffany reminds us of God in the process of finding a sponsor.  

Josh shares Step 3 is about being able to turn your life and will over to God and to trust Him. Sponsorship is part of that process, trust someone with your problems, your struggles and that can help you step into trusting God. Becky shares that she has trust issues and it felt “horrifying” that she had to trust someone with her story.  She shares it felt so scary that someone would hear what she was going to say but she tried to trust that they would hold that sacred.  She says her trust issues did NOT come from 12-step but many were healed through good sponsors and good people at 12-step.  Sponsorship is a beautiful way to find healing.

We need to be able to trust other people again.

By nature, being betrayed shatters your trust.

You don’t trust anybody and you especially don’t trust yourself.

Josh shares that Surrender is a critical component of the 12-Step Program.  In betrayal trauma it can often feel like the only two choices are “collapse” or “control”.  But he says there is a 3rd option- Surrender.  Give it over to God.  Put it at his feet.  “This is too much for me.  I can’t deal with it, can you take it?”.  Surrender is not about a free pass for our loved ones or just permission for them to do whatever.  

Surrender is about connection.  Instead of carrying it alone, you are actually sharing that load.

Tiffany shares that surrender gives us the opportunity for growth and empowers us.  “If I can really let this go, then something can change.  I gain strength because I am not carrying everything.”  Letting go gives you strength.  To surrender, Becky says she needed to work on her relationship with God.  “God and I had to get good” and Josh says 12-Step is a good way to do that.

As a therapist, Josh shares that he feels people need BOTH therapy and 12-Step.  He shares that they work synergistically- through 12-step you can have the group and common humanity and hear other’s stories and through therapy you can work your individual work with your therapist.  Learn and get some experience in 12-Step and bring it into therapy and work on it there.  Therapists can be supportive of the work, including the Step 4 Inventory.

Tiffany says that the “spiritual therapy” that came from 12-Step was something her therapy or her religion could not approach.  

12-step was like Spiritual therapy in action

Josh shares that just like the origins of 12-Step, you can address every angle, but if you don’t address the spiritual side, you will not move forward.  Many of us have spiritual wounding and we all need spiritual healing!

Josh’s Recovery Resources:

Finding God and Bringing God into the Process

Grounding

Finding safe meetings

Surrender

Josh’s Song: Scars by I Am They

Josh loves sharing his story and hearing other people’s stories and Christ’s story is the greatest story ever told.  In the song he talks about his scars and because of his scars, he knows his heart.  Because he knows his heart, he knows who he is.

Ep. 57- Candy's Story

Becky and Autumn sit down with Candy to share her story. Candy was born and raised in Texas and loves diamond painting and being a mom. She has a passion for helping other women through betrayal trauma.

Candy shares how, as she grew up, she “always had a close relationship with God. I always knew when I needed comfort or an answer, I could just ask.”

She met her husband on a blind date and they’ve now been married for twenty years. About six years into the marriage, Candy realized she often noticed a “deer-in-the-headlights” look on her husband’s face when they would have conversations. She knew something was wrong but didn’t understand what. 

One night, after a big argument, Candy’s husband told her he had a problem with pornography. She shares how she was disappointed and upset, but she initially didn’t see the link between their disconnect and fighting, and the porn.

Candy’s husband began attending Addiction Recovery Program meetings at their church, and, seeing that he was getting a lot of help, she soon joined the meetings for loved ones. During her first meeting, she saw someone she knew and felt scared. But she realized that person was there for the same reason.

Candy explains how her darkest times were after she and her husband began working on their problems in counseling. It was like therapy was uncovering all the “crud” she’d buried to protect herself.

“I was barely making it through the day. Anything that someone said to me that I didn’t agree with, I had to almost bite my tongue in half to avoid lashing out.” 

Candy reflects on how she didn’t trust herself, her own judgments, or her own decisions. “Satan puts shame on the person who isn’t responsible,” she says. However, eventually, she decided to refocus on her healing. “[I decided] I can’t continue being in such a bad mood. I have a little boy who needs my attention. I can’t keep going the way that I am.” So, she attended Sunday night ARP meetings, and then Tuesday counseling, and thought “Now I can make it from Tuesday to Sunday.”

“Once I realized and really took in that [my husband’s pornography use] had nothing to do with me, everything was his decision, nothing I did would have changed anything, I thought, ‘Oh yeah, I need healing.’” 

Candy describes the hurt, depression and deep despair she has felt. 

“You got stunned by a stun gun and you don’t know where to go. But once I jolted back, then I thought, ‘Go where you always go, that’s where you need to be.’”

Candy knew that where she needed to be was with God. Additionally, both support groups and the right therapist were also vital pieces to her healing because they served different purposes.

Another gamechanger for Candy was learning about the brain science behind addiction. “Addiction totally numbs them,” Candy says. This is why addicts often don’t have empathy and can feel completely numb. There is a void there—a missing piece—that porn sometimes fills, but it’s a very superficial, numbing answer. To learn that can all be rewired with a lot of work really helped Candy. “The most important thing to know is that this can be undone,” she says.

During the hard times, Candy shares that she remembers what someone in group told her:

“God can take everything.”

Candy realizes that “God can take the plans I had for my husband that weren’t His plan and can change it for the good. Slowly but surely, I’ve realized I have to pray to get better. Once I realized all the work I had to do, it seemed so daunting. But I started working and going to God.”

When asked what part God has played in her healing, Candy says:  

“I know [God] is there and no matter what, I have Him to go to. His answer really is what I need. I can’t imagine doing this whole rollercoaster of emotions without Him.”

Candy’s Healing Resources: 

Counseling- Even if your spouse isn’t willing to go. Go for your own peace of mind. They will give you tools. 

Find your tribe (a support group)

Candy’s Song: Come Unto Christ by Calee Reed

With a special mention of “I am Enough” also by Calee Reed

Ep. 56- Body Regulation and Betrayal Trauma with Todd Olsen, LCSW

Becky, Tiffany and Autumn are joined by Todd Olsen, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, co-founder of LifeStar, and clinical director of Circles of Grace (formerly LifeStar Salt Lake). Todd shares that he enjoys the outdoors and spending time with his grandchildren. Adventure is a big part of his life, and he loves the Lord.

Todd begins by asking Becky for more information about the Christian foundation of the podcast. After Becky shares the beauty in listening to women’s journeys walking with the Lord through their darkest times and back into the light, Todd affirms that to be a common experience among women he has worked with that are experiencing betrayal trauma.

It brings hope when we are able to look back when we move out of that and see where He was there all along.

Todd introduces Polyvagal Theory and encourages listeners to do a google search to learn more. He explains it as the nervous system searching for safety or protecting from danger, and then trying to help our bodies regulate back to a state of homeostasis.

Todd describes the three states of Polyvagal Theory: ventral vagal, or social engagement, sympathetic, or “fight or flight”, and dorsal, or “shut down”. Elaborating deeper, Todd describes the “window of tolerance” as the roller coaster of stress in our daily lives. Even though things can be stressful, if we can think and feel simultaneously, we are still in the window. When we are ruminating (overthinking) or emotions have taken over, usually that indicates we are out of the window.

If we stay within the window of tolerance we can have clear thinking and function.

Todd explains that the window of tolerance belongs with the ventral vagal level and that the first line of defense against any threat is social engagement. With Betrayal Trauma, the person causing the harm is the person you would usually turn to when experiencing a threat. When the first line of defense is not available, our nervous systems go to the second defense, which is Fight or Flight.

Todd shares that when in Fight or Flight people cannot think and feel simultaneously. This often looks like people saying words they don’t usually say or making decisions they don’t usually make. When these attempts to get equilibrium through Fight or Flight fails, then people move to the last line of defense: dorsal.

Todd describes behaviors in dorsal as shut down, collapsing, freezing, withdrawing, appeasing, pleasing, dissociating. Becky points out that these are natural responses from the nervous system in order to protect, and these are not explicit choices being made. Todd agrees and shares what he calls the nervous system:

It’s called the autonomic nervous system. We should just call it the automatic nervous system.

Autumn points out that betrayal is not the only time our bodies go to the dorsal stage, but that it can happen throughout our life. Todd relates how helpful it can be to know about the body’s nervous system because it helps us have self-compassion.

Todd describes the Four R’s of Polyvagal Theory: 1. Recognize what state we are in. 2. Respect ourself or others in whatever state they are in. 3. Regulating the nervous system to help it come back to a state of balance. 4. Re-story what is going on, or rewriting the story we tell ourselves.

If you have a friend in fight or flight… respect the state they are in. It’s not their fault.

Todd explains the importance of pendulation to help our nervous system move from dorsal (shut down) back to a state of equilibrium. He describes the need for physical and emotional movement at a micro level to begin the process, and the need to reflect and identify what state one is in.

We don’t give our nervous system enough time to leave it alone and let it come back to our natural state.

Todd leads the hosting team through exercises to identify how they show up in each of the three states. He recommends this process to all listeners, so they can identify this for themselves. Todd discusses several coping skills to help pendulate in healthy ways: yoga blocks, voo-ing, orienting, boundary work, poetry, exercise, music, etc... 

Todd shares that sometimes we can get stuck in our spiritual “have to’s” instead of listening to the Spirit guide and direct us. Tiffany shares that her experience getting divorced taught her that sometimes the Right Way looks different than what we thought.

Sometimes the Right Way is different.

Todd’s Recovery Resources:

Yoga blocks, power posture, exercise

voo-ing

Writing poetry, listening to music…

Orienting (4-3-2-1)

Todd chose his song because it reminds him to orient: “What a Wonderful World” by Louis Armstrong

Ep. 55- Music of Our Hearts- Part 2

“Music gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything.” -Plato

Welcome to Part 2 of sharing the Music of Our Hearts!  We are excited to share from members of the Rise Up Restored team (including voices you have never heard!) some of their favorite songs and how they have helped them on their healing journeys!!

Tiffany’s song- Known by Tauren Wells

Becky’s song- Cages by We the Kingdom

Erin’s song- Wanted by Danny Gokey

Autumn’s song- Who You Say I Am by Hillsong United

Richard’s song- Nightminds by Missy Higgins

Becky’s song- Inheritance by Jonathan David Helser featuring Graham Cooke

We hope you have been uplifted in your journey by these songs we have shared!

And a few bonus songs we also love:

~Graves into Gardens by Elevation Worship

~Into the Sea by Tasha Layton

~As You Find me by Hillsong Worship

~Dear God by Cory Asbury

Ep. 54- Music of Our Hearts- Part 1

“Music acts like a magic key, to which the most tightly closed heart opens.”  – Maria von Trapp

Part 1 of sharing the Music of Our Hearts!  Members of the Rise Up Restored team (including voices you have never heard!) share some of their favorite songs and how they have helped them on their healing journeys!!

Autumn song- Climb by Adona

Tiffany song- Just Like Fire by P!nk

Deborah song- I Believe in You by JJ Heller

Becky song- Firework by Katy Perry

Tiffany song- Prize Worth Fighting For by Jamie Kimmett

Autumn song- Rescue by Lauren Daigle

We hope you have been uplifted in your journey by these songs we have shared!

And stay tuned for upcoming Part 2!!!

Ep. 53- Heather's Story

Becky and Tiffany finally welcome Heather to the podcast. Heather describes herself as a simple, everyday crazy person who is mom to her herd of small humans. She loves to be outside, especially the mountains. Heather is a teacher and hammock-lover and enjoys trying new things.

Heather describes knowing at the young age of four that God was alive, around her, and answered her prayers. Growing up she felt very connected to her Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. She can remember many times where she witnessed miracles, had experienced angels helping her, or knew God was standing with her.

I looked for Him. I expected Him to be there. I put Him there, and He’d show up.

Heather describes growing up with her first husband, and how their relationship developed from friends to dating and eventually to marriage after graduating college. Three months into their relationship, Heather learned about his addiction when he lost his job because of acting out on the work computer. Heather enacted some boundaries that she thought may help, but inside she felt so alone and broken. 

The next many years included recurrent relapses that Heather would discover, then reassurances that things were okay. When she recommended 12 Step, her husband would attend and got nothing out of it. Heather realized that if he wasn’t attending for himself, it was worthless to go at all. Over time she felt more and more lost, her husband lost more and more jobs, and she felt like she was watching everything slip away. Heather would later learn about the intentional isolation her husband was creating around her. At the time, she felt like she had no family or neighbors or church friends who cared about her. She began experiencing intense anxiety and chose to be hospitalized to receive help.

At her lowest point, Heather felt close to suicidal. She reached out to her husband, sister, and work friends for help. Her sister and work family showed up for her. Her husband’s response of nothing dropped the world out from under her. At that point she felt God’s voice clearly.

It’s time. You’ve done enough. It’s time to walk away.

As she initiated the separation and divorce, Heather began to realize the amount of emotional abuse and isolation she had been put through. She started to process her shame that his addiction had been her own fault. As she worked on herself, she began to rediscover herself. Her children even noticed a difference in her demeanor and the lighter feeling in their home. Heather realized how many people in her life had been waiting for the opportunity to step in and love her, and she suddenly felt their support once she was no longer being kept in isolation.

I got to find out who I was.

Heather realized that she had been hiding in shadow. She threw out her muted wardrobe and began to find herself in light and colorful things. Becky validates her experience, sharing that sometimes depression and anxiety get so heavy we cannot see how dark it is or how dark we feel.

Tiffany and Heather discuss that sometimes staying in a marriage would lead to worse consequences than divorce. It is a testament to how hard the marriage is when it is a better situation to step away. Tiffany shares that she also heard the same words from God, “It’s time.”

If God’s saying it’s better for me to divorce, then it’s going to be better for my kids too.

Heather describes that the painful divorce process would not have been possible without the Lord. She describes processing her anger and realizing that God is a big man and can handle big emotions. She would visualize God or angels listening to her and then just hugging her and staying with her through it. She shares that there were times she could literally feel the hands of angels helped to calm her anxiety when it was intense.

Heather’s ecclesiastical leader recommend therapy for her. She found an amazing woman who helped her to feel safe and secure. She quickly learned that she loves therapy and looks forward to attending weekly. She likes the opportunity to dig in and realize things about herself.

Heather shares that after divorce she was excited to learn more about herself in the dating world. She heard God’s voice guide her to swipe up on someone she originally swiped down on. That lead to a conversation with Josh, someone she found so easy to talk to. Heather continued to hear God’s voice, as he informed her that Josh would be disclosing an addiction. Almost immediately, Josh texted to share his full history with sexual addiction, including an excommunication from his church. Josh telling Heather that his addiction has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with his own choices was the first time Heather realized the same was true of her first husband’s addiction. Heather appreciated Josh’s honesty and the gift of using her own agency to choose if she wanted to continue the relationship.

Heather describes how frequently God continued to speak to her throughout their courtship and new marriage. Her experience with addiction now carries no shame, and they speak openly with each other and others in their community about addiction and betrayal trauma. Heather shares that the way Josh treats his addiction, the way he treats her, and the way he treats himself are all completely different.

Working on healing is something that can strengthen a relationship if both people are in it.

Heather shares that she has realized that she did the best she could. That God loves her because of and in spite of and with her imperfections, and she is worthy with all of that. Realizing that their story isn’t over and it isn’t perfect, but that it can still be a tool to help others has propelled Heather and Josh to speak out.

God can use me now, even though I’m battered and bruised.

Heather knows that God taught her that she is enough, just as she is. She is no less worthy for her experiences. God is always there and His love for her will never change. She says that she may not have seen it when she was focused on her own pain, hurt, guilt, and shame, but that now she knows she is beloved and God has already made up the difference.

I’m enough. God loves me. That’s it. God loves me.

Heather’s Recovery Resources:

Redeemer by David Butler

Our family motto: seek Him, hear Him, act in Him

Daily Journal: where have I seen God today, where have I heard God today? How have I been His hand today?

Heather’s Song: Send Me Your Angels by Natalie Mabey

Ep. 52- Amy Claire's Story

Becky and Autumn sit down with Amy Claire to share her story. Amy Claire is a wife, mom of three kids, dancer, and cancer survivor. She’s currently studying to become a therapist.

Amy Claire shares how she grew up in a religious and structured household, and entered the adult world being very naive. She felt it was hard to learn to navigate life when she’d come from a bubble. 

Amy Claire discusses how she met her husband in college, and he seemed like such a great guy. It wasn’t until about six years into the marriage, after returning from a deployment in Iraq, that things started to feel off with a close male friend of her husband’s. But she was unprepared to see or understand what was actually happening in her marriage.

I had betrayal blindness. My mind was so powerful because it was protecting me. I wasn’t ready to know the truth.

Amy Claire describes how by the thirteenth year of marriage, things had become very rocky between her and her husband. He eventually revealed that he’d been looking at gay porn their entire marriage, and that he’d been unfaithful to her for most of it. She was completely blindsided.

My whole marriage was a lie. My whole life came flooding back like a movie reel.

After discovering her husband had been hiding a dual life for so long, Amy Claire shares that her betrayal was compounded by the revelation that he was gay, as well as by family members withholding information from her and therapists shaming her. She and her husband divorced, and she took a break from both her religion and from God.

She remarried shortly after the divorce. 

I thought, “I’m going to heal my broken heart by finding someone else and he’s going to fix me.”

Amy Claire describes that she did not yet possess the tools to be able to heal from the impact of all she had been through. A short time into the marriage, it became clear that her new husband was also being deceptive and betraying her. They immediately started intensive therapy and twelve step groups. “LifeStar was a game changer. I finally found people who knew my pain,” Amy Claire says. 

Things really began changing for her when her Book of Mormon fell open to Moroni chapter 7. Amy Claire says, “It told me that if you trust in God, He will give you the light and knowledge to know the difference between truth and lies.”  

God was saying, “You can stay [in the marriage], but I will let you know. I decided to let Him lead.”

Amy Claire realized she now had the best teammate, God, and that together, they could do this.

Autumn reminds us that, “true recovery is us giving our addict to God and knowing whatever happens, I’m going to be okay.”

Unfortunately, Amy Claire later discovered her husband was still betraying her, even while engaging in false recovery. She shares how she realized that going to LifeStar was for her, not for her husband because he chose not to use the tools he’d been provided with. After having a dream in which she was being buried alive, she realized she would die if she stayed in the marriage.

Amy Claire describes the feelings she had at this point in her life, when she had tools to recover:

I knew I would still be okay even though I had a second divorce under my belt.

Becky shares that we “often wonder, ‘Why do I have to do this recovery?’ But the healing that takes place is so beautiful.”

Amy Claire explains that this time around, she had a powerhouse of women behind her, and she began using boundaries with both of her ex-husbands. 

Slowly, through the hardships she and her children experienced, Amy Claire describes that she is finding happiness. She is now married to a man who supports her, and she feels peace. 

Becky reminds us that through family challenges, we can remember that we can’t redeem our children or ourselves because we are not a redeemer. 

There is only one Redeemer. He will truly redeem our children.

Becky further shares a fundamental principle: “The most important thing you can do is keep God at your center,” she says. “And you will know. Even if people don’t understand or disagree, you will know [what to do] if you have God at your center.”

When asked how she is finding restoration through Christ, Amy Claire explains that she enjoys self-care, which is, for her, listening to podcasts and going to therapy.

Amy Claire’s Recovery Resources:

Qualified Therapy

Intensive Outpatient Program

12 Step Groups

Podcasts

Self-care

Support system- good women who were there for her

Amy Claire’s Song:

“Need You Now (How Many Times)” by Plumb

Ep. 51- Gaslighting 101 with Sarah Morales, Certified Life and Relationship Coach

Becky and Tiffany sit down with Certified Life and Relationship Coach and podcaster (“Deconstructing Gaslighting”), Sarah Morales, to learn the basics of Gaslighting. Sarah shares that she loves to exercise, hang out on TikTok, and is an unapologetically enthusiastic band mom for her two sons.

Sarah believes that recognizing gaslighting is a tool that betrayed partners can gain over time, and it can make a big difference in our health, safety, and quality of life. 

After years and years of study, Sarah has come to understand that gaslighting is both a behavior that someone does and an experience between two or more people. According to Sarah:

“Gaslighting is when one person or a group of people through covert behaviors convinces the other person that what they think, believe, perceive, or feel is inaccurate or invalid.”

Sarah reminds us that “covert” doesn’t mean evil or premeditated. Sometimes the gaslighter isn’t even aware they’re doing it.

The spouse of an addict has typically experienced various forms of gaslighting, often for many years. When asked what it feels like to be gaslit, Sarah says, 

“Walk around in shoes that are two sizes too small for a day. That’s what it feels like to be gaslit. (We realize) this doesn’t feel right. Those thoughts, perspectives, and values are being imposed on me.”

Through her research, Sarah has created a scale to help determine what types of gaslighting are taking place in our relationships, the perpetrator’s motivations, and the steps we can take to protect ourselves from it. She says: 

“When you recognize it’s happening, what do you do? It depends on who the offender is. If it’s someone who’s trying to work on themselves, you deal with that one way. There are different ways to engage with different gaslighters.”

Sarah shares that, often we are not able to recognize gaslighting in the moment—it’s not until later that it hits you that it was gaslighting. When this is happening, Sarah recommends we start journaling. This helps us sort out patterns and feelings. “Never confront your person until you’re clear on what you know to be true,” Sarah says. “Also, usually don’t say, ‘You’re gaslighting me.’ Unless that person is willing and wanting to work on themselves, you’ll just be poking the bear.” 

Sarah also reminds that:

Even if the person’s intent isn’t to gaslight you, but they’re still gaslighting you, it’s abusive.

The most effective way to work through the gaslighting is, Sarah shares, using a three-pronged approach:

1. Get more educated about gaslighting 

Sarah uses an analogy involving arrows and targets. She shares that gaslighting is like the arrows, the gaslighter is the person who is shooting the arrows, and the person who is on the receiving end is the target. If we can identify the arrows, we can step out of their way more quickly. Sarah discusses how we don’t want to just focus on working on ourselves, because then we’ll still be hit with the arrows, and we don’t want to just focus on the gaslighting arrows because if we don’t understand what sucks us in, we’ll still be hit. 

2. Boundaries work

3. Values work

Sarah describes how boundaries either help us live out our values or protect our values, depending on the situation. She believes the more you know yourself, the better you’re going to be able to stand your ground and know if you need to step away from the person who is gaslighting you.

Sarah encourages approaching your values work and figuring out what your values are as if you’re trying to buy a pair of pants. She recommends trying them all on at least once. 

One good way to respond to gaslighting in the moment, Sarah believes, is saying: “I need to give that some thought.” The more we know we have choice and power, the more we know we don’t have to respond in that exact moment. 

One of the most tragic effects of gaslighting is when, according to Sarah, “their voice becomes our voice and then we’re gaslighting ourselves….most of us are so beaten down that we’ve lost our voice.” 

She shares she has worked with women who could no longer tell her their favorite color because of the complete disconnection from themselves. These women become frozen, unable to make even the smallest decision.

“Think of gaslighting like chipping away an iceberg and YOU’RE the iceberg,” Sarah says. “If you hear it over and over again, you start to doubt yourself.”

As is the case with so many aspects of recovery, the podcast team reminds us of the importance of a trusted network of support people in our lives. We can turn to them for clarity, validation, love, trust, and to help us find and see truth.

Find your people.

Sarah concludes the podcast by providing a list of common red flags to be aware of as we try to understand the ins and outs of gaslighting:

*Feeling confusion

*Feeling self-doubt

*Feeling the need to always be apologizing for things

*Finding yourself explaining yourself all the time…why you want things, why you feel this way, etc…

*All of your conversations feel like you’re in a courtroom

*Feeling like it’s a power play

*The words “should” or “shouldn’t” in the language the gaslighter uses

*Mutuality (shared responsibility) is a thing, look for it. Typically, in gaslighting relationships, mutuality isn’t there

*Finding yourself often in a state of internal conflict

*It’s often more about what isn’t said or what’s inferred (the inference is where the power is)

Sarah’s Resources:

Podcast: Deconstructing Gaslighting

Sarah Morales Coaching, on IG and FB

www.sarahmoralescoaching.com

@sassysarahdeconstructs on TikTok

Sarah’s song: 

“Wide Awake” by Katy Perry

Ep. 50- Where God Shows Up!

For our 50th episode, hosts Becky, Autumn, and Tiffany sit down to reflect on “Where God Shows Up” in their healing journey.  They share their experiences of looking for the light, recognizing earthly angels, learning about and healing their relationship with the Lord, and EXPECTING miracles, even in the hard times.  God is not just watching on the sidelines.  He is involved!  

Corrie ten Boom, a Dutch Christian who helped Jews escape during WWII and later was sent to a concentration camp, shared this thought:

“When a train goes through a tunnel and it gets dark, you don’t throw away the ticket and jump off.  You sit still and trust the engineer”.

We did our part- we are already on the train, still on the tracks.  So, keep working to trust the engineer.

***We hope that we leave you with hope, faith, vision and resources.  We want you to know that you are not alone, and that God is there.  We want to thank you all for joining us and hope you will continue to join us for our next 50 podcasts!***

Autumn’s Song Choice:

Brave Heart (Dear Daughter) by Tasha Layton

Ep. 49- Emily's Story

Becky and Tiffany sit down with Emily to share her story. Emily is a single mom to five boys and loves to play pickleball.

Emily shares how, as she grew up, she felt God’s presence in her life, despite the perfectionism she adopted at an early age. She feels fortunate to have always had a believing heart.

After discovering her husband had resumed porn usage early on in their marriage, Emily shares that she buried the pain and lived in a state of denial—she couldn’t put into words that she’d been betrayed. She didn’t tell anyone about what she was going through.

Over time, Emily began wondering if her husband’s problematic and odd behaviors had to do with a continuing pornography problem. Ten years into the marriage, he told her he had a porn addiction. They immediately began attending addiction meetings, and Emily appreciated the connection she found there.

She shares how engaging in therapy was vital to her healing journey, and it was there she began learning about boundaries.

I don’t think I experienced true peace until I started using boundaries, even though my husband pushed back on every boundary.

Emily explains how it didn’t take long for her husband to confess to more acting out behaviors. The abuse escalated the more she employed boundaries to protect herself.

I felt like a walking zombie—just numb and in shock. I was a puddle on the bathroom floor.

Slowly, Emily began coming out of the isolation and started talking with loved ones about what she was going through. She began sharing in groups more authentically and found a therapist who was trained in betrayal trauma.

Emily describes how her prayers changed. Instead of keeping back the parts of her that weren’t perfect—her faults and weaknesses—she began sharing with God all of the pain and anguish.

I could really feel God sitting there with me in the pain.

Emily explains how her SALifeline group supported her through separations from her husband. When she felt prompted to have another baby, she underwent the surrender process to accept this message from the Lord. A friend shared an inspiring thought:

“You can never go wrong when you follow God.”

The pregnancy became a clarifying piece for Emily. “Because I had this baby,” Emily says, “the Lord was able to show me just how awful [the abuse in her marriage] was.”  During the pregnancy, Emily’s husband asked for a divorce. Emily felt that the Savior provided SALifeline to be a key part of her recovery through this difficult time.

When asked at what point the weight of the abuse and divorce started to lift and the light came in, Emily says, “When I physically moved my things out of our home, when I felt that physical separation, that’s when I felt the burden lift. That’s when I felt freedom.” 

Emily shares how meditation has changed her life. Involving Jesus Christ in the meditations has been particularly powerful because she can imagine Him taking her box of pain from her and then returning with love and light.

Emily describes her restoration through Christ:

”The Lord gives me strength every day. My heart is truly healed.” 

Emily’s best recovery resources:

Prayer and meditation

Therapy with Utah Valley Counseling 

SALifeline

Connecting with others who are divorced

Pickleball for moving through trauma that becomes stuck in her body

Emily’s song of choice: 

“Abide with Me, ‘Tis Eventide”

If you or someone you know if experiencing domestic violence or abuse, please reach out for help and know you are not alone. 

-National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-799-7233

-Utah Domestic Violence Coalition: 800-897-LINK(5465)

-RAINN - rainn.org - The Nation’s Largest Anti-Sexual Violence Organization

-Rape Recovery Center - raperecoverycenter.org - To empower those victimized by sexual violence in Utah

-Utah Coalition Against Sexual Assault - ucasa.org - Resources for Survivors https://www.ucasa.org/resources

Ep. 48- Let's Talk About Shame

Hosts Becky, Autumn, and Tiffany sit down to discuss the hot topic of Shame and how it relates to betrayed loved ones.  Often shame is the focus of the recovery process with addicts but it is rarely brought up with betrayed loved ones in their healing process.  Becky shares that  

Nobody asked me about MY shame.  Nobody.

Autumn and Tiffany both agreed that no one said much about shame and that besides in therapy, Autumn has only ever talked with her husband about the shame that she has felt.  Why is shame such a taboo topic?  Why can’t we talk about it more?  Well, we can and are going to start talking about it today!

Becky shares a thought by Shame Researcher Brene Brown: 

Based on my research and the research of other shame researchers, I believe that there is a profound difference between shame and guilt. I believe that guilt is adaptive and helpful—it’s holding something we’ve done or failed to do up against our values and feeling psychological discomfort.

I define shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging—something we’ve experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection.

I don’t believe shame is helpful or productive. In fact, I think shame is much more likely to be the source of destructive, hurtful behavior than the solution or cure. I think the fear of disconnection can make us dangerous.

Autumn simplifies the definition by to- Guilt is “I did something bad” vs Shame is “I am something bad”.  Or “I made a mistake” vs “I am a mistake”.

Because shame isn’t helpful or productive and it often can lead to destructive, hurtful behavior. This makes sense how it plays into the addictive cycle.  So, where does that leave us?  The betrayed loved one?  What does that mean for us?  We know that everyone feels shame and we may not recognize we are feeling the shame until later.

The hosts share some examples of shame they have each experienced.  Tiffany shares that addicts are not the only ones who have harmful behaviors and that her shame led to isolation, depression, anxiety, and more.  She also shares that she felt embarrassed and didn’t want to tell anyone because she didn’t want her husband to be judged.  “But I felt like I had done something wrong but I didn’t know what to do about it.  I definitely felt shame in MYSELF for the situation that was outside of myself. And I had no idea what to do with that.”

Autumn says that shame led to a lot of her faulty core beliefs. “You’re not good enough. You aren’t pretty enough.  You deserve this because of XYZ… You did this, so now you get XYZ done to you.”  She recently read a list recently that helped her realize areas where shame can show up:

~Shame that isn’t yours to carry

~Shame for something that was done TO you

~Shame about someone else’s actions

~Shame due to stigma or prejudice

~Shame resulting in someone else’s judgment

~Shame for having different values than someone else

~Shame because you said no or set a boundary

~Shame that was passed down to you by family

~Shame about your emotional needs

~Shame for struggling or needing support

~Shame that is a conditioned response from early life

She shares that this list struck her deeply and that core beliefs from childhood formed around many of these things.  And many of these things came right back up with her husband’s addiction.  

Becky says she really felt a lot of embarrassment around her husband’s addiction, wondering, “Why did I choose him?  Why didn’t I know better?  Why didn’t I choose better?”.  She hears from many women the question of, “Why did I stay?”.  The hosts ALL share that they have asked themselves that question.  Autumn say that then her negative core belief would come up- “Oh see, you are stupid”.  Toxic shame keeps us down.

Tiffany shares her thought about the destructive nature of shame, Satan goes to shame first, just like he did with Adam and Eve in the garden:

There is no healing, no progress, no light, in shame.  It is one of Satan’s biggest tools. 

Becky reminds us that if we are feeling shame, that is Satan.  She believes that 

God does not shame and if you feel that, it is not from God.

The hosts discuss how shame and guilt feel different in their bodies, including feeling embarrassment, feeling snappy, and many other things.  One of the biggest things they have all experienced is the draw to isolate and turn inward and away from others:  

Whenever something crops up and I feel the need to isolate, I know it is shame I am feeling.

Feelings of guilt feel different in our bodies- Becky shares that guilt is more likely to lead her to act and make changes instead of shutting down and Tiffany says that she is more likely to talk about guilt than shame.

It can be so important to learn where your shame stems from and what are the factors around the shame.  As adults, we need to learn about guilt and shame in ourselves so that we can help our kids learn these things, too.  When we know better, we do better.

The hosts share areas that they struggle with shame- Becky shares that she has felt shame about allowing her husband to treat her with anger and anger with their children.  “That is something I swore I would never allow in my home.”  Autumn says she continues to deal with body shame.  She says she has a ton of shame around, “Am i good enough for him, Do I look well enough for him?  Am I presentable enough for him?  Am i being sexual enough for him.”  Many people wonder “Why didn’t I speak up sooner?  Why didn’t I set boundaries sooner?”.  And Tiffany shares that she has felt shame about making herself an object to please or appease her partner.  

“Secrets keep us sick”

Shame can infiltrate everything and that is why we wanted to talk about it.  

Both people in the relationship need to be working on themselves so we can both get better.  We all need to talk about our shame, even though it can feel hard.  Sometimes we have felt “ashamed of our shame”.  Becky reminds us all that things that are hard and most vulnerable are just where Satan wants to slide the shame right in. 

Satan is such a jerk and knows each of us so well that he tailors our shame to our situation.  

You may tackle something and feel pretty settled about it and then Satan comes in and brings another thing to feel ashamed about.

Autumn shares that motherhood and being a daughter is something affected by shame for her and Tiffany says that dating relationships is where he slips shame in for her.  She also shares that she has shame about having pain and past experiences.  Becky says that the shame about being wounded activates in her. “You are too wounded.  You are too broken.  You are too GONE to fix.”  And that sometimes talking about history brings up shame for her.

The hosts remind us that shame is really personal to each of us but also general to everyone and we can relate to each other about shame.  Talking about shame brings light to this subject.

We all battle shame.

How do you guys fight Satan and shame?  The hosts share their thoughts on self-compassion, trauma clearing in the body, and honoring our feelings.  Keeping in mind that shame can come from any and all feelings, including happy and joyful ones and to be gentle with ourselves and others as they navigate shame that comes up.

Let’s speak our shame.  Let’s talk about it!

The hosts share that they each have a lot of work to continue doing.  This is just the first step.  If we keep it hidden or dark, those lies will just fester.  They remind us all that shame is something that everyone has in one area or another. 

It is important that we all talk about shame and work on it, not just addicts.

Team’s Shame-fighting Resources:

Self-compassion

Reaching out to God and others

Listening to and honoring your body

Taking lies to the Lord to learn the truth

Speaking truth into Satan’s lies

Team’s Song:

Fear is a Liar by Zach Williams

This song talks about the lies and shame from Satan that that cause us to shut down and withdraw.